Topic Of Plugins

[sermak]

Hey,

As we know, many plugins disappear. So i started this topic, if it's possible, aggregate in one Topic every Plugin.

I was searching nothing in special and i went to kingzooly github and found a game IndioMe that uses, for eg., GroupBox from RizlaUK and Global Timer from reteset.. and i can see how work from functions but not "real time".

It's a simple idea.. i don't know if anyone more agreed with that

[BioHazard]

Yes, in theory - it'd be beneficial as much as it's needed. The reality though is not so straight forward.

First, a basic thread dedicated to plugins won't work. You'd end up with a thread consisting of pages and pages (and pages again) - to cover all the plugins and DLLs. Remember that uploaded attachments have a file-size limit (5mb, I think?). You'd end up with a hotch-potch of uploads and double-ups from members all over the place. And in the end it'd be a real pain to find anything.

The better solution would be for IR to allow a dedicated & permanently stickied thread, with:

• a single external link to a web server hosting all the free Plugins (arranged alphabetically) on a single page.
• a single external link to a web server hosting all the free DLLs (arranged alphabetically) on a single page.

But even this presents several dilemmas in itself ...

• Who's going to host the web server? You could pitch for a free public server like Box (on which users can preview a folder displaying all the plugins on a single page) which might end up looking something like this:

• But who controls the account details to the Box account?
• And who's responsible for the uploading/updating of the files?

Plus - it's an enormous job ...

• There's hundreds of these things to upload. Every single plugin / DLL would first have to be scanned / checked for file integrity prior to upload.
• The Licence file for every plugin would also have to be checked to ensure complicity with the author's copyright. A free plugin / DLL does NOT necessarily permit redistribution without the author's consent.

IP's VersionInfo Plugin is a prime example.
It's a free plugin however the Licence file is very clear on the issue of redistribution:

And so you can begin to envisage the enormity of the task, yeah? As un-ideal as the current situation is, having a sort of de-centralized system which operates on member-request / member-supply basis is probably about as efficient a system as we're going to get.

Sad to say - but there it is.

[Imagine Programming]

Thank you BioHazard for your elaborate reply, I would like to make an addition: I have seen many website redistribute my plugins in packs or separately. The problem with this is that often those websites embed viruses and malware in the binaries - this is one of the major reasons why redistribution is not allowed. The only "trustworthy" source for a plugin is the actual source, the author. All other sources should not and cannot be trusted.

Aside from that, a central place for all plugins (it has been tried before, multiple times) is just another place to maintain for the developer or anyone else. Often you'll see that versions on that location will be behind or simply incorrect.

I see a lot of plugins being shared here, many of which by Reteset, and if I remember correctly he also did not allow redistribution. I would be willing to accept that my plugins be mentioned on a central plugin database, but only as referrals to imagine-programming.com. Like this, I would be able to provide functionality for version information etc.

As you have said BioHazard, it's an enormous job

[colc]

Hi guys,
Maybe I'm missing something or I am completely out of order, but this forum is dying a slow cruel DEATH - Plugins have been a prop up to AMS since version 4 - 7 and beyond because the masters at Indigo Rose have never changed with the times.(Sorry but true)
Loads of really good programmers have made excellent plugins to fore-fill the gaps within this excellent program.
Let's remember this started off as a drag & drop CD Menu Maker. (Heaps of scripting enhancements came later)
I have gathered many Plugins over the years from links provided, nearly all were FREE to download.

I helped Rex out when his hard drive died, with a link to my uploaded plugs - He never complained about redistribution.

I truly respect my mate Bio, and Bas but I think Legalities Must play a second fiddle in this circumstance, as these plugins are hard to find from this forum, excluding those from "Image Programming" and "Mindquake" which are still well alive.
Members cannot be expected to download searched apz freely available, but with the plugs missing.

We are still all here to help one an other, so I will say that anyone that has at least say 3 posts and PMs me I will give a link (Same as Rex) to get Plugs.
I think there is no need for a website in this situation - This small community should SHARE or DIE.

I hate to say but I will probably now be banned for my stand.

[Imagine Programming]

He never complained about redistribution.

That one person does not complain, doesn't make it right.

I truly respect my mate Bio, and Bas but I think Legalities Must play a second fiddle in this circumstance, as these plugins are hard to find from this forum, excluding those from "Image Programming" and "Mindquake" which are still well alive.
Members cannot be expected to download searched apz freely available, but with the plugs missing.

Even though I understand your point of view, one cannot ask of someone else to illegally host software that is developed by others. Without the explicit consent of the original author, it simply is a crime and some people might also treat it that way. Now I will say that I will always keep my plugins online, no matter what, but I also agree that it cannot be expected of others.

There comes a day we'll have to accept that AMS is dead and move on, but until we do, let's keep it ethical and legal.

[sermak]

I had not thought deeply about this.

It was simply to have everything organized and online. Because Reteset and others had plugins, some free and others not but that end up getting lost "forever".

My thinking was not to commit any crime (in authorial terms) simply keeping the vast work and plugins done over time. Because I respect and I have a notion that it is not from the air that one lives and that gives work and is wasted time for other things.

[BioHazard]

...I have seen many website redistribute my plugins in packs or separately. The problem with this is that often those websites embed viruses and malware in the binaries - this is one of the major reasons why redistribution is not allowed.

Yes, I've seen your stuff floating about on such websites, sensei. And can certainly empathize. Seeing your work getting plastered about with viruses/malware attached would be distressing for any serious developer. As it calls into question the developer's reputation as an ethical coder. (After all, the end user doesn't necessarily know it wasn't the author who embedded the virus). And concur for that particular reason that the author's wishes really do need to be respected.

I do think though that if a developer has distributed a product as a freeware and has not specifically prohibited redistribution, then sharing is okay provided one's intent is honorable. Let's keep in mind that in our respective Western legal systems,"intent" is an enormous factor in determining whether an action actually constitutes "criminality". Which is just as it should be - it's a basic tenet of natural justice.

I also think however that IP raises a valid point - and concur. And that it's just common courtesy to seek permission from a plugin's author (wherever possible) before sharing. Although such is not always practical or expedient, it does demonstrate 'intent'. As well as grace.

....................

I see a lot of plugins being shared here, many of which by Reteset, and if I remember correctly he also did not allow redistribution.

Yes, Serkan's plugins float around a lot - largely because they're so numerous. He was a prolific plugin writer. (Same could be said about Worm's DLLs). I had no idea Serkan specifically forbade redistribution of his freeware. Are you sure about that one, sensei??? Can't say I've ever looked that closely at the T&Cs of his licence files - but I think most of his freeware stuff just says, "No special licence needed." (Note to self - will have to look into that one).

What about Riz's stuff? Was he ever specific about the sharing of his freeware within the confines of this community? I can't remember. Some of these guys are simply no longer contactable. And an absence of the work they left behind would be a major blow to just about everyone here.

Gawd - I hope all this isn't the reason that Centauri Soldier seems to have gone dark in the last couple of weeks. I offered to help him restore his lost archive of freeware plugins. Geez, just wanted to help out - didn't mean to upset the apple cart.

Look it, there's only a few items here which have actually been licensed under GNU or released as open-source (ie. LuaCOM, LuaSocket). I think that licence files which specifically prohibit redistribution need to be respected. As do the wishes of any developer who's requested their work not to be shared. And if a licence file does not specifically prohibit sharing, it's certainly just basic good manners to at least try to seek permission from the author first. But at day's end, if that's not possible, a certain amount of practicality and common sense needs to be employed, too.

So licence files and known wishes of the developer not withstanding, ethical-intent will be (at least for me) the deciding factor on whether something gets shared from my end.

Okay, I'm outta here...

[kingzooly]

Most of my plugins have been open source, this is why I don't mind but some other peoples work should be gotten from the dev just like IP said, also I am not that good as a dev so my work does not warrant me warring about people re hosting it, most of the time I already hosted it on a open source platform or posted the source code here, if I made a paid plugin or a plugin that could provide problems for the end user that I have to support it I would have to have them download it from what ever platform I picked to be able to support them.

Many of us in the past have set up dll, plugin and apz mirrors with the permission of the creators permission but they cost alot to maintain and the creator of the given code does not want to update a 100 times so the mirror would have to deal with that.

Sadly the truth is some people walked away from AMS thanks to IR, some just went a different path also, but since they no longer use the tools they can't support there work, it's not easy to retain every bit of code you ever made to support it in the future.

We do rehost if the licence promites it, I also know a few of us tried buying the rights to some prem plugins so we could keep them alive but we got told they wouldn't be willing and that is understandable.

[Imagine Programming]

Yes, I've seen your stuff floating about on such websites, sensei. And can certainly empathize. Seeing your work getting plastered about with viruses/malware attached would be distressing for any serious developer. As it calls into question the developer's reputation as an ethical coder. (After all, the end user doesn't necessarily know it wasn't the author who embedded the virus). And concur for that particular reason that the author's wishes really do need to be respected.

I do think though that if a developer has distributed a product as a freeware and has not specifically prohibited redistribution, then sharing is okay provided one's intent is honorable. Let's keep in mind that in our respective Western legal systems,"intent" is an enormous factor in determining whether an action actually constitutes "criminality". Which is just as it should be - it's a basic tenet of natural justice.

I also think however that IP raises a valid point - and concur. And that it's just common courtesy to seek permission from a plugin's author (wherever possible) before sharing. Although such is not always practical or expedient, it does demonstrate 'intent'. As well as grace.

Agreed, when a license does not explicitly state that redistribution is not allowed, one could argue it is in fact allowed to redistribute the binaries in the same way the original author did so. If no license was specified at all, the original author still has the copyright (thus one cannot claim they made it nor sell it as their own, I believe) - however redistribution should be possible. I also believe that, in a good conversation, anything is possible. If there would be a centralised repository for these plugins (or an archive) - it could serve as a mirror when developers would like to partake or when developers have not specified a license that forbids mirroring.

Yes, Serkan's plugins float around a lot - largely because they're so numerous. He was a prolific plugin writer. (Same could be said about Worm's DLLs). I had no idea Serkan specifically forbade redistribution of his freeware. Are you sure about that one, sensei??? Can't say I've ever looked that closely at the T&Cs of his licence files - but I think most of his freeware stuff just says, "No special licence needed." (Note to self - will have to look into that one).

You're making me doubt what I said, but I would still advice people to ask Serkan himself. I don't think he will mind a great deal, but it's best to be sure I believe.

What about Riz's stuff? Was he ever specific about the sharing of his freeware within the confines of this community? I can't remember. Some of these guys are simply no longer contactable. And an absence of the work they left behind would be a major blow to just about everyone here.

I have taken over a couple of his plugins in development back then; the Canvas control in Draw and ListIcon are examples of that, but he did explicitly gave me permission to integrate those in my own plugins and distribute them as my own. I don't know about his other work - I have a tool hosted on my site for him, but that's about it. I have tried contacting him a couple of times in the past few years, but indeed he seems to have gone dark online.

Gawd - I hope all this isn't the reason that Centauri Soldier seems to have gone dark in the last couple of weeks. I offered to help him restore his lost archive of freeware plugins. Geez, just wanted to help out - didn't mean to upset the apple cart.

I don't believe so - I got a reply from him on my mail about a week ago, so he's still around somewhere. Maybe he was surprised at how few people are still active in this community, but we must not speculate.

Look it, there's only a few items here which have actually been licensed under GNU or released as open-source (ie. LuaCOM, LuaSocket). I think that licence files which specifically prohibit redistribution need to be respected. As do the wishes of any developer who's requested their work not to be shared. And if a licence file does not specifically prohibit sharing, it's certainly just basic good manners to at least try to seek permission from the author first. But at day's end, if that's not possible, a certain amount of practicality and common sense needs to be employed, too.

So licence files and known wishes of the developer not withstanding, ethical-intent will be (at least for me) the deciding factor on whether something gets shared from my end.

Okay, I'm outta here...

This is a good conclusion to this matter, and I agree.

[Worm]

I don't think I ever had a licensing on anything I put up here. Feel free to share any of my content.

[Shane123]

I don't think I ever had a licensing on anything I put up here. Feel free to share any of my content.

Wow just poped on to the forum to see if IR has, announced some form of quality of life update for AMS.(We can but hope lol)

Then i see a post from a username, I havent seen in a longtime lol. Worm you are litrally are becoming a legend around here. When are you going to buy IR out and, update the program for us lol

Sorry IR i love you but, we saw more updates in all hes APZ & PlUGINS ever posted, than in your one year maintenance plan. Where your charged us to fix bugs haha.

Take the above as a joke lol DONT BAN ME hahah.

IP i have only one thing to say to the below statement.

There comes a day we'll have to accept that AMS is dead and move on.

Neverrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. Lol

Hope you all are well.